|
Post by tomandrobin on Jul 20, 2023 6:49:18 GMT -5
DH is telling me he's reading that DVC is trying to sell their HHI and VB properties. Is that even possible? Don't they at least have to wait until 2042? Technically, they can sell off the properties now.....but I highly doubt it. Disney is not losing money on the properties, everything is paid for by the annual dues. Selling it them now would be a huge black eye to Disney and DVC. However, I am a firm believer these two properties will be sold off eventually.....2042 is only 19 years away.
On a related note, one of these days I need to sit down and see if I can calculate the death date of the 2042 resorts. The death date is when resale value starts its eventual decline to zero.
|
|
|
Post by brp on Jul 20, 2023 10:49:45 GMT -5
DH is telling me he's reading that DVC is trying to sell their HHI and VB properties. Is that even possible? Don't they at least have to wait until 2042?
On a related note, one of these days I need to sit down and see if I can calculate the death date of the 2042 resorts. The death date is when resale value starts its eventual decline to zero.
It seems that this would be market-driven and a prediction rather than something calculable. Are there specific factors that allow an actual calculation in this case?
Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by dlwdwdvc on Jul 21, 2023 3:19:38 GMT -5
Disney Files Magazine Summer 2023 Issue Looking ahead : Hilton Head Island Resort Live Oak Lodge Refurbishment Beginning this Fall Vero Beach to conclude early. Next year Accommodations Refresh to replace bedding and draperies , and over the sofa wall beds … Fixing up to sell? Just take one hurricane season at a time if you own Why worry about tomorrow .?
|
|
|
Post by fuzzylogic on Jul 21, 2023 7:55:24 GMT -5
I need to sit down and see if I can calculate the death date of the 2042 resorts. The death date is when resale value starts its eventual decline to zero.
This will be interesting to watch. Presumably this has already started. Let's say OKW is $100 now (ballpark). That's down from prior years right? If there are 20 years left on it then we can say it will lose an average of $5 per year. It'll probably lose a little less than that per year in the next few years then a little more in the later years. Now I believe the valuable resorts will have a drastically different experience. Look at the Starcruiser - as soon as you say it's closing, it books up instantly at full price. Same will happen with Boardwalk / Beach Club. You know if and when these get reimagined after 2042 they'll have a vastly different point chart, like Riviera high. As we get closer to the end, people will realize their time to stay in these prime resorts as we know them will come to an end, and they will be as hotly demanded as ever for the cheap chart and prime location. This uber demand will prop these resorts value heavily right up to the last few years because owners hold the cards on getting these rooms. We bought in cuz I think it's going to get progressively harder to trade into the Boardwalk in these waning 20 years. Another interesting math problem is what will happen to booking at what remains of the valuable resorts after 2042. Losing two of the prime resorts BW and BC, will this mean other prime locations like BLT, Poly, GF get more demand? BW & BC are about 8,000,000 points... but OKW, BR, HH, VB (non-prime locations) are about 11,000,000 points (taking OKW at a guess of 80% non extended). So in 2042 we'll take 11 million non-prime resort points out of the system, but only 8 million prime resort points. I think this will be overall a good thing for those who still own after that.
|
|
|
Post by tomandrobin on Jul 21, 2023 10:21:06 GMT -5
On a related note, one of these days I need to sit down and see if I can calculate the death date of the 2042 resorts. The death date is when resale value starts its eventual decline to zero.
It seems that this would be market-driven and a prediction rather than something calculable. Are there specific factors that allow an actual calculation in this case?
Cheers.
Well....This is a quick example.
You can rent a OKW studio 9/15-9/17 for $546 from David's Rentals. That studio uses 26 points. The rental cost is $21 per point.
MF is $9.36 per point.
Current "average" resale price for OKW is $105 per point (2042 contract).
There are 19 years left in the contract.
105 divided by 19 = $5.52 per point $5.52 + $9.36 - $14.88 per point.
The death spiral starts when that "net cost per point reaches $21 per point.
By my estimates, it will be around 12-14 years out from 2042, depending on the maintenance fee increases. This also assumes that the $105 pp stays constant.
Once the cost of ownership is more then what it would cost to rent, that is when the resale prices will start crashing for that resort.
Using the example above for BCV.
MF $8.17, Avg Resale $138($7.26 pp), Studio 30 points, Rental Cost $630 ($21 pp) $8.17 + $7.26 = $15.43 per point.
Death spiral will start slightly sooner then OKW.
|
|
|
Post by helenabear on Jul 21, 2023 13:31:06 GMT -5
I need to sit down and see if I can calculate the death date of the 2042 resorts. The death date is when resale value starts its eventual decline to zero.
This will be interesting to watch. Presumably this has already started. Let's say OKW is $100 now (ballpark). That's down from prior years right? If there are 20 years left on it then we can say it will lose an average of $5 per year. It'll probably lose a little less than that per year in the next few years then a little more in the later years. Now I believe the valuable resorts will have a drastically different experience. Look at the Starcruiser - as soon as you say it's closing, it books up instantly at full price. Same will happen with Boardwalk / Beach Club. You know if and when these get reimagined after 2042 they'll have a vastly different point chart, like Riviera high. As we get closer to the end, people will realize their time to stay in these prime resorts as we know them will come to an end, and they will be as hotly demanded as ever for the cheap chart and prime location. This uber demand will prop these resorts value heavily right up to the last few years because owners hold the cards on getting these rooms. We bought in cuz I think it's going to get progressively harder to trade into the Boardwalk in these waning 20 years. Another interesting math problem is what will happen to booking at what remains of the valuable resorts after 2042. Losing two of the prime resorts BW and BC, will this mean other prime locations like BLT, Poly, GF get more demand? BW & BC are about 8,000,000 points... but OKW, BR, HH, VB (non-prime locations) are about 11,000,000 points (taking OKW at a guess of 80% non extended). So in 2042 we'll take 11 million non-prime resort points out of the system, but only 8 million prime resort points. I think this will be overall a good thing for those who still own after that. OKW cannot be accounted into this. While some deeds end, the resort does not - the entire end year of the resort is 2057
|
|
|
Post by tomandrobin on Jul 22, 2023 5:23:38 GMT -5
This will be interesting to watch. Presumably this has already started. Let's say OKW is $100 now (ballpark). That's down from prior years right? If there are 20 years left on it then we can say it will lose an average of $5 per year. It'll probably lose a little less than that per year in the next few years then a little more in the later years. Now I believe the valuable resorts will have a drastically different experience. Look at the Starcruiser - as soon as you say it's closing, it books up instantly at full price. Same will happen with Boardwalk / Beach Club. You know if and when these get reimagined after 2042 they'll have a vastly different point chart, like Riviera high. As we get closer to the end, people will realize their time to stay in these prime resorts as we know them will come to an end, and they will be as hotly demanded as ever for the cheap chart and prime location. This uber demand will prop these resorts value heavily right up to the last few years because owners hold the cards on getting these rooms. We bought in cuz I think it's going to get progressively harder to trade into the Boardwalk in these waning 20 years. Another interesting math problem is what will happen to booking at what remains of the valuable resorts after 2042. Losing two of the prime resorts BW and BC, will this mean other prime locations like BLT, Poly, GF get more demand? BW & BC are about 8,000,000 points... but OKW, BR, HH, VB (non-prime locations) are about 11,000,000 points (taking OKW at a guess of 80% non extended). So in 2042 we'll take 11 million non-prime resort points out of the system, but only 8 million prime resort points. I think this will be overall a good thing for those who still own after that. OKW cannot be accounted into this. While some deeds end, the resort does not - the entire end year of the resort is 2057 Okw is going to be such an outlier because of its spilt ownership. What do they do during that 15 year gap? I need to go look up the percentage of 2042 vs 2057 ownership. Let's say 50% is 2057. I can't see Disney just leaving half the resort as cash reservations. I need more coffee to think about this.....
|
|
|
Post by BWV Dreamin on Jul 22, 2023 5:33:21 GMT -5
Is there any possibility there will be offers for extensions? I think around 2032 there will be a rapid decline in value with those 2042 properties. It will be very interesting to watch this whole scenario unfold.
|
|
|
Post by helenabear on Jul 22, 2023 8:19:07 GMT -5
OKW cannot be accounted into this. While some deeds end, the resort does not - the entire end year of the resort is 2057 Okw is going to be such an outlier because of its spilt ownership. What do they do during that 15 year gap? I need to go look up the percentage of 2042 vs 2057 ownership. Let's say 50% is 2057. I can't see Disney just leaving half the resort as cash reservations. I need more coffee to think about this..... I'm not sure coffee will help me figure out what they will do lol. Some legal expert noted that we own specific parts too so technically they cannot just tear down either as some others suggested elsewhere. Then they'll have to deal with non quit claim signed owners too. They have at least been trying to buyback OKW to resell. Be interesting to watch in 2042.... Is there any possibility there will be offers for extensions? I think around 2032 there will be a rapid decline in value with those 2042 properties. It will be very interesting to watch this whole scenario unfold. No.... see OKW debacle
|
|
|
Post by Adelard of Bath on Jul 22, 2023 13:18:44 GMT -5
Once the cost of ownership is more then what it would cost to rent, that is when the resale prices will start crashing for that resort. But you can't make the assumption that rental rates will remain the same. As MFs go up, surely rental rates will go up. Also, isn't the idea of "resale prices crashing" based on the assumption that a person would say "I own, but I could rent cheaper, so I am going to sell and just rent instead"? If that happens, the rental demand would increase, leading to an increase in cost of renting, which would counteract the idea of it being cheaper to rent. It is obvious, though, that if it was the year 2038 and there were four years left on a contract, it wouldn't sell for much on the resale market. Except maybe the cost of four-year's worth of trips maybe. And if we paid rack rates for the two-week 1-bd OKW trips we take, I don't even want to know how much that would cost. Except suffice to say, if we had to pay rack rates....we wouldn't be going for two weeks in a 1-bd. Which is pretty much why we bought in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by Adelard of Bath on Jul 22, 2023 13:19:51 GMT -5
Is there any possibility there will be offers for extensions? I think around 2032 there will be a rapid decline in value with those 2042 properties. It will be very interesting to watch this whole scenario unfold. No.... see OKW debacle If there was, I might be first in line
|
|
|
Post by FessParker1 on Jul 22, 2023 13:52:55 GMT -5
If there are less years left you might need to figure in closing costs when buying and agent fees when selling
|
|
|
Post by jflatto on Jul 22, 2023 15:16:05 GMT -5
When the 2042 date gets closer, might there be a run of staying at OKW, existing owners or renters (I don't see new people buying in at that point) for nostalgia reasons similar to the run on the Galactic Star Cruiser hotel when it was announced it was closing.
Thus, it will be hard to predict what happens to OKW prices as it gets closer. Anyone know the split between 2042 and 2057 for OKW. I know the extension "sale" did not go the way that Disney hoped but don't know the actual numbers.
|
|
|
Post by BWV Dreamin on Jul 22, 2023 16:02:59 GMT -5
Okw is going to be such an outlier because of its spilt ownership. What do they do during that 15 year gap? I need to go look up the percentage of 2042 vs 2057 ownership. Let's say 50% is 2057. I can't see Disney just leaving half the resort as cash reservations. I need more coffee to think about this..... I'm not sure coffee will help me figure out what they will do lol. Some legal expert noted that we own specific parts too so technically they cannot just tear down either as some others suggested elsewhere. Then they'll have to deal with non quit claim signed owners too. They have at least been trying to buyback OKW to resell. Be interesting to watch in 2042.... Is there any possibility there will be offers for extensions? I think around 2032 there will be a rapid decline in value with those 2042 properties. It will be very interesting to watch this whole scenario unfold. No.... see OKW debacle Yeah I am aware of that debacle. But that doesn’t mean there may not be some other extension proposal. Never say never.
|
|
|
Post by BWV Dreamin on Jul 22, 2023 16:07:06 GMT -5
When the 2042 date gets closer, might there be a run of staying at OKW, existing owners or renters (I don't see new people buying in at that point) for nostalgia reasons similar to the run on the Galactic Star Cruiser hotel when it was announced it was closing. Thus, it will be hard to predict what happens to OKW prices as it gets closer. Anyone know the split between 2042 and 2057 for OKW. I know the extension "sale" did not go the way that Disney hoped but don't know the actual numbers. The question is how many new DVC resorts will there be before 2042? If there are few new resorts, I can see a rush to stay before the demise of those 2042 resorts. But, if you’re a direct owner, why rush? You can still stay there regardless of what happens to those resorts. Now resale owners, that’s a different story. That will drastically reduce the number of resorts available to book for resale owners.
|
|