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Post by oldhalfelf on Jun 25, 2023 13:00:58 GMT -5
Anyone seeing my screen nom de plume might reasonably guess I am a Tolkien fan. Over the past decade, I have mentioned several times (on this site and its predecessor) the desirability of Disney obtaining any available rights to Tolkien IP -- e.g., as the focus of a "fifth gate", etc. In that context, I am absolutely stunned and disappointed by the following article, which appeared this last week in Variety: variety.com/2023/film/global/embracer-group-paid-395-million-for-lord-of-the-rings-rights-1235650495/ . How did this IP get away at the quoted price, which seemed to surprise Variety? (N.B. -- The Embracer deal reportedly was struck before the recent management change at Disney.) Digging a little deeper, there is this (possibly one-sided) perspective from the buyer: embracer.com/releases/embracer-group-enters-into-agreement-to-acquire-ip-rights-to-the-lord-of-the-rings-and-the-hobbit-literary-works-by-j-r-r-tolkien/ . In that press release, I am bemused by the first sentence/paragraph's inclusion of the phrase "...which owns a vast intellectual property catalogue and worldwide rights to motion pictures, video games, board games, merchandising, theme parks and stage productions relating to the iconic fantasy literary works The Lord of the Rings trilogy and The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien, as well as matching rights in other Middle-earth-related literary works authorized by the Tolkien Estate and HarperCollins, which have yet to be explored." [Emphasis added.] Theme parks, huh? As for the closing clause, it would be interesting to know what "other ... literary works authorized by the Tolkien Estate and HarperCollins" that means. One might hope that another "canon" war is not in the offing, beyond The Rings of Power (which has grown on me due to an interesting Galadriel, while remaining non-canon.)
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Post by mcd on Jun 25, 2023 15:54:06 GMT -5
I also love LOTR. That would've been amazing and seems like a crazy missed opportunity.
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Post by jedimom3 on Jun 25, 2023 17:42:12 GMT -5
There seem to be a lot of articles, no idea how credible the sources might be, about Tolkien loathing Walt Disney.
I think Disney would've (and would still) F%# it up if they got the rights to Tolkien. I will admit they didn't totally screw up Marvel. Haven't been there yet, but Avenger's Campus sounds cool. And Pandora as a land is kinda neat, (FoP is fabulous,) and they didn't totally screw up Batuu......there IS a Millenium Falcon there, and I did get to fly it into hyperspace, but the rest is nowhere near as immersive as it should/could be. (PLEASE bring back something like Star Wars weekends!!, character meals, and another ride!)
Now....let's move down the road to a place who "might" do it justice: Universal. If they do anything close to what they've done with the Wizarding World, it would be awesome. Diagon Alley is the most immersive theme park area I've ever been in. I haven't been to any of the Nintendo lands, but most say they're also incredibly immersive.
Many, many articles posted around August, 2022, after this acquisition, discussing rumors of Middle Earth at the new Epic Universe, but not much since then. I think Epic will be full enough with the rumored HP expansion, classic monsters, How to Train your Dragon, and their Nintendo land, but there are rumored to be 5 areas.....so, maybe something there for LotR, or maybe in a further expansion. Who knows. none of the areas listed have even been confirmed.
Maybe it would be better if both Disney/Universal left it alone, let someone else do it. But out of Disney and Universal, the latter would do a MUCH better job with it. Poseidon's Fury just finally closed, and Universal has been completely mum on what's going on there and in the rest of that entire land.....We're hoping Zelda, but who knows.
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Post by brp on Jun 25, 2023 17:49:29 GMT -5
...and they didn't totally screw up Batuu...... Sure they totally screwed it up. It isn't Tatooine.
And, no, I'm not biased
Cheers.
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Post by Adelard of Bath on Jun 25, 2023 19:19:28 GMT -5
Some might argue that they screwed it up simply by making it a new land/story. Now every single person that goes in there that isn't into Star Wars (myself included) says, why is everything different than the REAL Star Wars movies? (Real meaning the first three and don't gimme any of these crazy names or crazy numbers...everyone knows what I'm talking about)
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Post by tomandrobin on Jun 26, 2023 7:48:23 GMT -5
For starters....Disney just doesn't have the money to buy more franchises. As it is, they have been cost cutting these past 6 months to try and save $5 billion dollars. And even if they somehow "found" the money to buy it, they would have none leftover to develop the franchise.
Right now, everything is going the wrong way for Disney. Almost everything is bleeding money except for the Theme Parks and ESPN. Then there is the huge debt from the Fox purchase and the Covid borrowing. Next year, Disney has to pay out a lot of money to Comcast for their Hulu deal, which will be a minumum of $9 billion dollars.
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Post by tomandrobin on Jun 26, 2023 7:54:41 GMT -5
Some might argue that they screwed it up simply by making it a new land/story. Now every single person that goes in there that isn't into Star Wars (myself included) says, why is everything different than the REAL Star Wars movies? (Real meaning the first three and don't gimme any of these crazy names or crazy numbers...everyone knows what I'm talking about) They did mess it.....Star Wars is Episodes 4,5 and 6. All the other movies and sideshows from those big three.
Disney tried to create another "world" to make additional profit, which confuses a lot of people when the visit "Star Wars Land" at DHS. Thank goodness they add the Millennium Falcon to give it some tie to the original 3 movies. The Cantina doesn't really count, it has the name and band, but otherwise its just a bar with no windows.
This doesn't mean I don't like the rides, I do (if they only would run in "A" mode and not "B" mode most of the time, that's another rant).
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Post by Adelard of Bath on Jun 26, 2023 10:22:56 GMT -5
This doesn't mean I don't like the rides, I do We managed to ride the Millennium Falcon, solely because we were walking by at closing time and the wait was like 10 minutes. My comment was that it was a low-quality flight simulator that was expecting us to participate, which wasn't fun and it probably ruined it for the other people on the ride. I think Star Tours is vastly superior, but that's just my opinion. Haven't been on the other ride...maybe if one day it had a normal line and it happened to be short, we might try it out. But maybe not because we assume everyone in there will be trying to talk to us about being in the resistance and whatever else the in-character people talk about
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Post by brp on Jun 26, 2023 11:36:19 GMT -5
Right now, everything is going the wrong way for Disney. Almost everything is bleeding money except for the Theme Parks and ESPN. Which is cool for us since all we care about are the parks. As long as those continue to do well enough to let us go, all is good. The rest is, to me, just noise.
Cheers.
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Post by Brian5581 on Jun 26, 2023 11:51:53 GMT -5
I'm not so sure there's a large enough general fanbase to make it worthwhile for Disney (in a purely additive sense, meaning people who would likely not otherwise be visiting a Disney theme park or seeing a Lord of the Rings movie). Admittedly I have extremely limited interest myself so definitely could be wrong there. And a blockbuster movie or an amazing attraction would of course garner some interest regardless.
As Tom said, I also don't believe Disney is really in a position to buy at the moment, not that it couldn't happen with some creative methods of course. But I would think that would only be with a "guaranteed" moneymaker. I do think Nintendo opening up within a couple years up the road will end up increasing the theme park competition for sure. Double whammy if it's a huge success (or more importantly, the new park as a whole) and Disney pays off for the remainder of Hulu...
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Post by Brian5581 on Jun 26, 2023 11:58:09 GMT -5
Right now, everything is going the wrong way for Disney. Almost everything is bleeding money except for the Theme Parks and ESPN. Which is cool for us since all we care about are the parks. As long as those continue to do well enough to let us go, all is good. The rest is, to me, just noise.
Cheers.
I've always cared about more than the parks, and unfortunately Tom is accurate. They could really use a tremendous box office performance or two and hope it can become the next franchise (or franchise offshoot). Unfortunately don't see it happening anytime soon. And needless to say the idiot politicians (on all sides) and those who can be swayed by anything they say are of zero assistance...
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Post by brp on Jun 26, 2023 12:24:41 GMT -5
Which is cool for us since all we care about are the parks. As long as those continue to do well enough to let us go, all is good. The rest is, to me, just noise.
Cheers.
I've always cared about more than the parks, and unfortunately Tom is accurate. They could really use a tremendous box office performance or two and hope it can become the next franchise (or franchise offshoot). Unfortunately don't see it happening anytime soon. Agree as well. I wouldn't mind a new idea from Disney and something interesting to see. My interest is more in having the revenue bolster toe parks as I don't care much, in general, about the health or stock of Disney except inasmuch as it impacts the parks and resorts. Since they are interrelated, I care to that level.
Cheers.
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Post by oldhalfelf on Jun 26, 2023 14:43:08 GMT -5
I very much appreciate the comments, regarding which I would offer two responses. First, although Disney stock is having a rocky time, I don't really feel that is everything is going wrong for Disney. Elemental's second weekend box office drop was small compared to immediate competition. On June 5th, S&P raised the bond rating on a bunch of Disney bonds from BBB+ to A-. According to my broker's website today, as of 7/15, Disney is making a "total call" of $300 M in 7.55% very long-term bonds -- i.e., using assets to pay them off seven decades early at a 3% premium, for a total amount roughly commensurate with the cost of the Tolkien IP deal. Other non-callable, very long-term Disney bonds are currently selling at 42% above par. Second, the currently un-produced, home run Tolkien IP waiting for someone is the story of Luthien and Beren (and Luthien's canine friend, Huan the thrice-speaking and possibly angelic wolfhound) and their struggle against Morgoth, Sauron's boss. It is hard for me to predict the ultimate viewership demand for it, if the Tolkien Estate licensed it, given that the story of the Silmarils will be unfamiliar to most everyone, and is bittersweet. But its unfamiliarity is perhaps the point, in a world of endlessly recycled plots.
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Post by tomandrobin on Jun 26, 2023 14:47:48 GMT -5
Right now, everything is going the wrong way for Disney. Almost everything is bleeding money except for the Theme Parks and ESPN. Which is cool for us since all we care about are the parks. As long as those continue to do well enough to let us go, all is good. The rest is, to me, just noise.
Cheers.
I mostly agree.....I only care because the money the parks make, goes towards paying all the other money losing stuff. That in turn me not much is going back into the parks for awhile.
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Post by tomandrobin on Jun 26, 2023 15:00:11 GMT -5
First, although Disney stock is having a rocky time, I don't really feel that is everything is going wrong for Disney. Elemental's second weekend box office drop was small compared to immediate competition. On June 5th, S&P raised the bond rating on a bunch of Disney bonds from BBB+ to A-. According to my broker's website today, as of 7/15, Disney is making a "total call" of $300 M in 7.55% very long-term bonds -- i.e., using assets to pay them off seven decades early at a 3% premium, for a total amount roughly commensurate with the cost of the Tolkien IP deal. Other non-callable, very long-term Disney bonds are currently selling at 42% above par. Elemental's drop was small because the first week was a disaster. The loss will be around $200m.
I can not speak of the reasons behind the call on the Bonds. This is the first I have heard of them doing so.
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