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Post by helenabear on Aug 22, 2024 10:56:29 GMT -5
The Resale restrictions has been the number 1 complaint about buying at the Riviera Resort. If you don't think it matters, look at Cabin sales numbers.
I had not seen the formal data showing an ordered list of complaints across a wide sample of potential buyers, so was not aware of this statistic. It would be interesting to see the actual data on this. Is there a place I can find this? I always believe credible data; I just have not seen any as yet. Well I gave you data to show that another that relies entirely on bus sold out faster during a massive recession even. If you didn't follow SSR had two sales windows of opening to sold out. Walking access to DS is similar to a park to many, I would think. But I'd love to see the aforementioned data. I have my opinion-based doubts. I'll always let credible data trump opinions. Cheers. All that is not compiled on one page. It was extrapolated from all the info of when sales opened and closed as reported on several reputable DVC news sites. None of that is unavailable to anyone. You just have to know where to look. I could give you links to everywhere that I looked, but it will take you a lot of time to put it together. Which is why I gave you the important data points in the post. I'm a data girl and data speaks volumes. Now my speculation on all of this is that the reason why they are giving us more add-ons to Resorts is because this whole resale restrictions thing is a pain in the butt. Also probably why we have a trust thing on the cabins because I think they realize they need to do something different than just blanket restrictions. Why they don't just change it, and they can anytime they want to, I have no idea. RIV is a beautiful resort, which helps the sales. Restrictions are a bust and have held many back - myself included. I am still on the fence, love resort, not a fan of skyline. Still considering direct buy at the right price. If they expanded the waterway to RIV, it would be a no-brainer, would buy direct (with the right incentives) and resale, or maybe just resale. Cabins are miss. It is a niche population. disney will be selling these longer than AUL imo. Interesting take on DVC - my son's friend came on vacation with us and stayed with us at BCV, VGF, and SSR. His favorite resort was SSR. He liked being close to downtown disney and the golf course. He did the DVC tour and said if he were to buy he would buy at SSR. SSR has really grown on me from the first time I was there right after it opened. Yes there was still construction going on, but lack of greenery made that walk to Disney Springs feel extremely exposed and kind of unsafe to us. The walkway from okw who was always more pleasant in the beginning LOL |
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Post by brp on Aug 22, 2024 10:58:11 GMT -5
All that is not compiled on one page. It was extrapolated from all the info of when sales opened and closed as reported on several reputable DVC news sites. None of that is unavailable to anyone. You just have to know where to look. I could give you links to everywhere that I looked, but it will take you a lot of time to put it together. Which is why I gave you the important data points in the post. I'm a data girl and data speaks volumes. OK. Cheers. |
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Post by captjacksfamily on Aug 22, 2024 14:37:38 GMT -5
If I remember right the cabins were going to be dog friendly. Since some people can't seem to leave Fido at home I wonder if Disney thinks this is a big draw to them. Personally I love pups but seeing how some people can leave their room without dogs I can just imagine the issues following an inconsiderate dog owner which may be why the MFs are so high.
I'm in the camp that the restrictions aren't that big of deal since it has become pretty hard to get 7 month reservations, never visit the lounge and have other ways to get the same discounts.
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Post by baymaxfan on Aug 22, 2024 15:19:28 GMT -5
While I do think resale restrictions hurt (especially for possible add-ons by current members), it is really hard to compare across decades. SSR sold about 13M points (I took out the ~900,000 THV points) in roughly the time it took Rivera to sell about 4.7M points. However . . .
When SSR opened in 2004, there were only 4 other WDW DVC resorts - OKW (1991), BWV (1996), WLV (now BRV 2001), and BCV (2002). There were a total of 1754 units, of which 1291 were OKW and BWV. Twenty years ago also seemed to the be the beginning of the peak of interest in DVC. Forums were much more active in discussion, and would continue that way for several years, even into the great recession. That means, in 2004, there was a ton of new demand and also little availability. OKW and BWV, the vast bulk of the units, would likely have been sold out. There weren't a lot of points/units for WLV and BCV. Few would have even know that resales existed at that time. Meaning, SSR happened to open at a great time for Disney. Yes, the great recession hit in 2008, but SSR was already 4 years into sales. Let's not also forget that the original price for SSR was $89/point when it went on sale in late 2003 and was actually dropped to $79 at some point.
By the time Riviera was built, there were 5 additional resorts and a total of 4362 units (2 1/2 times more than when SSR opened). Initial starting price had jumped to $217/point (144% higher than SSR starting price) and the fervor for DVC does not seem nearly as strong as it once was. AND, Riviera has resale restrictions to boot.
I suppose I'm wondering how much is resale restrictions and how much is timing/circumstance. Riviera entered a much more difficult market - Disney is not as popular, higher cost for DVC (and I didn't even go into point inflation per room), higher market saturation, and COVID. Post-COVID WDW became much more complicated to plan and much more expensive (outstripping inflation multifold). This also doesn't touch on competition from outside hotels and short-term rentals. I very much doubt that if SSR opened in late 2019 and had no resale restrictions, that it would've sold anywhere as well as it did in 2004.
Source - lots of internet searching because I apparently have nothing better to do right now.
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Post by dmkedm on Aug 22, 2024 16:01:03 GMT -5
Interesting discussion...FWIW: I had dinner w/my DVC guide (who has become a friend) when I was at WDW last week. I asked her about Fort Wilderness sales. She said they are slow, but attributed it to two factors, the biggest being that until just the week before last they (the guides) didn't have a model to show prospective buyers--she said the fact that prospective buyers couldn't see the cabins stopped most of the people she'd been working with from committing to a cabins purchase. She also said that "no one knows" what ownership in a trust means, and that has put off some prospective buyers, too. However, she said the fact that the cabins sleep six is drawing a lot of interest. My own opinion (not hers at all) is that DVC's various big sales are competing for DVC purchase dollars. Apparently there's a big sale going on at SSR now; there was a huge one at OKW a bit ago; and I know I bought GFV and RR during "monster" sales on those two resorts within the last few months. So, is it possible that the dismal first month or two sales data could turn around now that there is a cabin model for prospective buyers to tour? And could the trust ownership issue be cleared up and thus allay some of the reluctance to commit to trust ownership?
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Post by baymaxfan on Aug 22, 2024 16:12:00 GMT -5
Interesting discussion...FWIW: I had dinner w/my DVC guide (who has become a friend) when I was at WDW last week. I asked her about Fort Wilderness sales. She said they are slow, but attributed it to two factors, the biggest being that until just the week before last they (the guides) didn't have a model to show prospective buyers--she said the fact that prospective buyers couldn't see the cabins stopped most of the people she'd been working with from committing to a cabins purchase. She also said that "no one knows" what ownership in a trust means, and that has put off some prospective buyers, too. However, she said the fact that the cabins sleep six is drawing a lot of interest. My own opinion (not hers at all) is that DVC's various big sales are competing for DVC purchase dollars. Apparently there's a big sale going on at SSR now; there was a huge one at OKW a bit ago; and I know I bought GFV and RR during "monster" sales on those two resorts within the last few months. So, is it possible that the dismal first month or two sales data could turn around now that there is a cabin model for prospective buyers to tour? And could the trust ownership issue be cleared up and thus allay some of the reluctance to commit to trust ownership? Factors more important than the trust and not having a model cabin - 1. Cost 2. Maintenance fees 3. No "deluxe" amenities 4. Far from parks with buses that make multiple stops 5. Resale restrictions If your DVC guide was speaking to you as a friend, I'm surprised none of these issues were mentioned. If your DVC guide was speaking to you as a guide, then I would expect they would gloss over this. |
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Post by helenabear on Aug 22, 2024 18:08:06 GMT -5
If I remember right the cabins were going to be dog friendly. Since some people can't seem to leave Fido at home I wonder if Disney thinks this is a big draw to them. Personally I love pups but seeing how some people can leave their room without dogs I can just imagine the issues following an inconsiderate dog owner which may be why the MFs are so high. I'm in the camp that the restrictions aren't that big of deal since it has become pretty hard to get 7 month reservations, never visit the lounge and have other ways to get the same discounts. Not every single cabin is going to be dog friendly, but apparently one Loop once everything is opened will be just like it was before with the cabins. I think given the percentage of the cabins that will be dog friendly, that doesn't have as much to do with the MFs as them being stand alone and more high maintenance type of a building. |
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Post by dmkedm on Aug 22, 2024 18:45:58 GMT -5
from baymaxfan:
"If your guide was speaking to you as a friend, I am surprised none of these issues (cost, maintenance fees, no "deluxe amenities," far from parks with buses that make multiple stops, resale restrictions), I'm surprised none of these issues were mentioned. If your DVC guide was speaking to you as a guide, then I would expect they would gloss over this"
From me: It was a friends dinner. We did talk about resale restrictions, and she said from her perspective most prospective buyers (she didn't say, but I suspect most of her prospective buyers are new rather than add-on prospects) are interested in the resale restrictions, but they don't seem to be a determining factor, more often than not. We also talked about maintenance fees and she said the annual fees are something all prospective buyers want to know and understand, but she didn't sense the higher fees at the cabins were a key factor in a decision on whether to buy a cabins contract. Amenities and transportation didn't come up at all in our conversation on this subject.
She seemed most concerned about the lack of a model to show early-on and was really glad there is now a model she can show people. And she was unhappy about not being able to explain the trust arrangement....she didn't know why ownership was in a trust, and didn't see any advantages to it--we did talk about "the future" of the trust concept and I noted it might turn out to be an advantage when more resorts are available to buy within the trust (with the resulting home resort advantage at multiple resorts)....
Anyway, I am not at all interested in buying into the cabins; was just curious about her perception of prospective buyer reaction to them. (And she was and is well aware that I'm not a current prospect at all for more points anywhere--I just (within the last 6 months) added on 150 points at GFV and 200 points at RR--I am most definitely not currently in the market for more points, and she knows that.) And she was clear that in her experience, the key factor in deciding against a cabins purchase was the inability, early-on, to show a model. The other factors were secondary, at least in her experience. While we didn't discuss it, it seems to me that the "I can't see it" might have been no more than an excuse to not buy--I don't know. I just found it interesting that this was her perception of how trying to sell the cabins was going, early-on.
As many posters here have pointed out, frequently, we on the WDW chat sites are a lot more familiar with DVC properties than the "buyer pool" in general. So I'm thinking a lot of the factors baymaxfan mentioned are things that would matter a lot to people as familiar as we are with DVC and its properties, but maybe not so much to someone coming into DVC ownership as a newbie?
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Post by brp on Aug 22, 2024 18:48:24 GMT -5
As many posters here have pointed out, frequently, we on the WDW chat sites are a lot more familiar with DVC properties than the "buyer pool" in general. So I'm thinking a lot of the factors baymaxfan mentioned are things that would matter a lot to people as familiar as we are with DVC and its properties, but maybe not so much to someone coming into DVC ownership as a newbie? This is good data from a reliable source, IMO. It matches my thoughts that the general populace knows/cares less about the issues that matter to us. Thanks for the data.
Cheers.
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Post by helenabear on Aug 22, 2024 19:02:58 GMT -5
from baymaxfan: "If your guide was speaking to you as a friend, I am surprised none of these issues (cost, maintenance fees, no "deluxe amenities," far from parks with buses that make multiple stops, resale restrictions), I'm surprised none of these issues were mentioned. If your DVC guide was speaking to you as a guide, then I would expect they would gloss over this"From me: It was a friends dinner. We did talk about resale restrictions, and she said from her perspective most prospective buyers (she didn't say, but I suspect most of her prospective buyers are new rather than add-on prospects) are interested in the resale restrictions, but they don't seem to be a determining factor, more often than not. We also talked about maintenance fees and she said the annual fees are something all prospective buyers want to know and understand, but she didn't sense the higher fees at the cabins were a key factor in a decision on whether to buy a cabins contract. Amenities and transportation didn't come up at all in our conversation on this subject. She seemed most concerned about the lack of a model to show early-on and was really glad there is now a model she can show people. And she was unhappy about not being able to explain the trust arrangement....she didn't know why ownership was in a trust, and didn't see any advantages to it--we did talk about "the future" of the trust concept and I noted it might turn out to be an advantage when more resorts are available to buy within the trust (with the resulting home resort advantage at multiple resorts).... Anyway, I am not at all interested in buying into the cabins; was just curious about her perception of prospective buyer reaction to them. (And she was and is well aware that I'm not a current prospect at all for more points anywhere--I just (within the last 6 months) added on 150 points at GFV and 200 points at RR--I am most definitely not currently in the market for more points, and she knows that.) And she was clear that in her experience, the key factor in deciding against a cabins purchase was the inability, early-on, to show a model. The other factors were secondary, at least in her experience. While we didn't discuss it, it seems to me that the "I can't see it" might have been no more than an excuse to not buy--I don't know. I just found it interesting that this was her perception of how trying to sell the cabins was going, early-on. As many posters here have pointed out, frequently, we on the WDW chat sites are a lot more familiar with DVC properties than the "buyer pool" in general. So I'm thinking a lot of the factors baymaxfan mentioned are things that would matter a lot to people as familiar as we are with DVC and its properties, but maybe not so much to someone coming into DVC ownership as a newbie? My guide did have a different point of view than yours. He just left the company this spring but he did know restrictions were an issue for some. Those who knew it was a "for now" purchase. Not everyone obviously worries or cares. I will say my info rarely comes from this group, but from outside of here. One group has maybe 26,000+ members last time I checked. A lot more variety than here. Restrictions comes up a lot in that group sith newbies asking away about it before purchasing. I think your guide has rose colored glasses on if she thinks not having a model to tour was the issue though. I think she's glossing over too many other issues with the resort. As many posters here have pointed out, frequently, we on the WDW chat sites are a lot more familiar with DVC properties than the "buyer pool" in general. So I'm thinking a lot of the factors baymaxfan mentioned are things that would matter a lot to people as familiar as we are with DVC and its properties, but maybe not so much to someone coming into DVC ownership as a newbie? This is good data from a reliable source, IMO. It matches my thoughts that the general populace knows/cares less about the issues that matter to us. Thanks for the data. Cheers. I hope this wasn't directed at DVC news who keeps a good history of sales in articles that one can search. Especially given your comments towards guides being in the past. I'd personally listen to data over sales weasels or whatever you call them. |
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Post by tomandrobin on Aug 23, 2024 6:14:02 GMT -5
Interesting discussion...FWIW: I had dinner w/my DVC guide (who has become a friend) when I was at WDW last week. I asked her about Fort Wilderness sales. She said they are slow, but attributed it to two factors, the biggest being that until just the week before last they (the guides) didn't have a model to show prospective buyers--she said the fact that prospective buyers couldn't see the cabins stopped most of the people she'd been working with from committing to a cabins purchase. She also said that "no one knows" what ownership in a trust means, and that has put off some prospective buyers, too. However, she said the fact that the cabins sleep six is drawing a lot of interest. My own opinion (not hers at all) is that DVC's various big sales are competing for DVC purchase dollars. Apparently there's a big sale going on at SSR now; there was a huge one at OKW a bit ago; and I know I bought GFV and RR during "monster" sales on those two resorts within the last few months. So, is it possible that the dismal first month or two sales data could turn around now that there is a cabin model for prospective buyers to tour? And could the trust ownership issue be cleared up and thus allay some of the reluctance to commit to trust ownership? This is just a generalization and my opinion........But those people looking to fit six people into a cabin for cheap point usage, more than likely can not afford DVC ownership.
Not having a Model is just another excuse. I remember when VGF went pre-sales, I just happen to be in WDW that weekend. We added on 300 points that first day with no model. The Poly Tower will start pre-sales with no model and the first month will sell more points then the Cabins for the current year......I can guarantee this.
The real reasons for the Cabins lack of sales..... 1. Only 1-bedroom options
2. No new amenities
3. Piss poor pool 4. Extremely high maintenance fees. 5. Resale restrictions 6. The Trust 7. Terrible transportation options.
8. Far too remote for most Disney families.
9. Bunkbeds next to the Queen bed in the bedroom.
10. Way too expensive for their target audience.
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Post by tomandrobin on Aug 23, 2024 6:29:52 GMT -5
Not every single cabin is going to be dog friendly, but apparently one Loop once everything is opened will be just like it was before with the cabins. I think given the percentage of the cabins that will be dog friendly, that doesn't have as much to do with the MFs as them being stand alone and more high maintenance type of a building. The Cabins and property are extremely high maintenance and costly to operate. The Cabin is exposed to outside elements on five sides, making it harder to heat and cool, plus the exterior maintenance of the cabin roof and wall, and patio/deck maintenance.
The cheapest MF resorts are also the most efficient....using central chiller/boiler systems, smaller grounds maintenance, etc. The price of the Cabin MF comes with nothing extra like a animals at AKV, or the Waterpark of BCV, or the multiple pools and skyliner at Riviera.
The Dog friendly area is not that big and there are "extra" fees for damages, etc. Funny thing, we were at WDW three times the past 2.5 months and I even commented to Robin how the number of people bringing their dogs to the parks has really dropped from the past five years.
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Post by brp on Aug 23, 2024 8:27:07 GMT -5
This is good data from a reliable source, IMO. It matches my thoughts that the general populace knows/cares less about the issues that matter to us. Thanks for the data. Cheers. I hope this wasn't directed at DVC news who keeps a good history of sales in articles that one can search. Especially given your comments towards guides being in the past. I'd personally listen to data over sales weasels or whatever you call them. `A salesweasel in a sales presentation is one thing. Someone talking with a friend, off the record and with nothing to gain, is something different. In this case, I would certainly trust the person with the background as they have no vested interest in lying like they do during the sales pitch.
And I've never heard of DVC news, so I was not disparaging them. Just indicating my faith in someone I would expect to have firsthand knowledge.
Cheers.
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Post by Adelard of Bath on Aug 23, 2024 8:35:00 GMT -5
My wife, who does not read any chat groups or anything like that, got the latest issue of the DVC magazine that came the other day and was excited to see Chip and Dale. This seemed to be her first time learning about the Cabins. She seemed to think they looked neat, but then almost right away she said, "Oh getting there with the busses sucks though! Takes forever, it's so far away." I pointed out that there's no laundry and she's like "What! Oh man."
So from the mouth of babes, there's your proof of those issues. At least for us, anyways.
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Post by helenabear on Aug 23, 2024 11:43:22 GMT -5
I hope this wasn't directed at DVC news who keeps a good history of sales in articles that one can search. Especially given your comments towards guides being in the past. I'd personally listen to data over sales weasels or whatever you call them. `A salesweasel in a sales presentation is one thing. Someone talking with a friend, off the record and with nothing to gain, is something different. In this case, I would certainly trust the person with the background as they have no vested interest in lying like they do during the sales pitch. And I've never heard of DVC news, so I was not disparaging them. Just indicating my faith in someone I would expect to have firsthand knowledge. Cheers. DVC News is one of the more comprehensive sites for DVC history. They predated the website which I think launched in the mid 2000s with news feeds elsewhere. They have a good history and good knowledge. Definitely worth checking out. Call me jaded but someone who is a guide and then became a friend is still a guide to me. A friend who became a guide after friendship would be different. This person might be their friend but is their guide first IMO. Why? Disney doesn't take kindly to CMs who share things that are not in their line of thinking. No way these people are off the cuff when they're with a client. |
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